That just sounds fucking HORRIBLE! How do you even manage having those conversations? Just reading it made my skin crawl.

Bea, I'm not suggesting that you do this but remember that their is a certain point of judgment that it is not reasonable to pass. If you try and try, and seem to get nowhere, then sometimes you just need to walk away. This is true even in situations that involve your family. I'm not saying that you need to disappear if you're at this point. Just that you need to draw your boundaries very clearly, and if someone (anyone) is disrespectful enough to cross those boundaries, then you shouldn't give them your time or your sanity.

I have a very close family, so sometimes it's hard to tell when things have gone too far. But trust me, just because they are your family doesn't give them the right to attack you. Sometimes it's a lot easier to tell them that if they're not going to listen to you, and you can't talk it out in a calm, reasonable way, then you're just not going to be involved. Not all the time, but more than most people think.

Oy gevalt.

Oh, it's totally handled. My sister is out for now, she's become just as destructive as she was on drugs and even our most conservative siblings agree - she's fucking nuts and we hope her life is good one day, but we just can't be around her. she didn't even come to thanksgiving, and she was not missed.

and mom wasn't "mean", she was genuinely concerned. because we live in a world where all the words have been changed and people trust whatever sounds the most bizarre and scary. she's always been kind of right-wingy, but in a libertarian kind of way, and conversations with here were not complete nonsense 10 years ago.

i was curious though, if it's just having this effect on my family because they have weird mental illnesses or if other people are also encountering this weird language and attitude shifts in their lives? >> ^Ryjkyj:

Bea, I'm not suggesting that you do this but remember that their is a certain point of judgment that it is not reasonable to pass. If you try and try, and seem to get nowhere, then sometimes you just need to walk away. This is true even in situations that involve your family. I'm not saying that you need to disappear if you're at this point. Just that you need to draw your boundaries very clearly, and if someone (anyone) is disrespectful enough to cross those boundaries, then you shouldn't give them your time or your sanity.
I have a very close family, so sometimes it's hard to tell when things have gone to far. But trust me, just because they are your family doesn't give them the right to attack you. Sometimes it's a lot easier to tell them that if they're not going to listen to you, and you can't talk it out in a calm, reasonable way, then you're just not going to be involved. Not all the time, but more than most people think.

No, that stuff's always out there. I've seen it happen before. It just sucks.

The final solution is to stop dating Nazis. Even if they do worship Jesus and oppose liberalism.

Also, al-Qaeda doesn't need your help anymore. Quit sending them magic-shelled candies and large sacks of money.

Have you tried explaining to her what fascism is?

Fourteen Defining
Characteristics Of Fascism
By Dr. Lawrence Britt
Source Free Inquiry.co
5-28-3


Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

You could always invite her to join videosift!

Belief systems are strong things, and they tend to make people argumentative when they think it's being challenged. To attack it head on will only beget more arguments and most likely strengthen their opinions further. Remember, struggling in quicksand makes you sink faster!

I say refuse to engage in these conversations. If they bring them up, then cut them off and say you're not interested in whatever they have to say if it has to do with politics. Tell them their politics are their business, and yours is yours, and you won't judge them if they don't judge you. Fair is fair. They should respect that. Then you can try to just build up those familial friendships again. And in the end that's what's important here, right?

omg! i've actually gone through this exact list with her and her husband before and the most bizarre thing happened - they attached every single point to "liberals". the phenomenon here is that the language has been changed. the world "liberal" is no longer derived from the word "liberty". it simple means "ugly nazi fascist death monsters"

and the word "liberty" now means "liberty in christ".

i shoplifted a copy of "the overton window" over the summer and read it aloud to my friends, the entire thing is chocked full of doublespeak. the introduction itself is almost entirely doublespeak. and sometimes i read articles on fox's website, or the drudge report or whatever for fun. it's loaded with doublespeak. almost every article uses some device to change the meaning of language. it's brilliant.

one of my best friends brother is a linguist at UF. i'm pretty sure when those boys come back to texas for christmas we're going to have a serious discussion about this.


>> ^dystopianfuturetoday:

Have you tried explaining to her what fascism is?
Fourteen Defining
Characteristics Of Fascism
By Dr. Lawrence Britt
Source Free Inquiry.co
5-28-3

You can never have enough magic shelled candies.

Wow, that's nuts. How did they spin 1, 4 and 7-12? >> ^peggedbea:

omg! i've actually gone through this exact list with her and her husband before and the most bizarre thing happened - they attached every single point to "liberals". the phenomenon here is that the language has been changed. the world "liberal" is no longer derived from the word "liberty". it simple means "ugly nazi fascist death monsters"
and the word "liberty" now means "liberty in christ".
i shoplifted a copy of "the overton window" over the summer and read it aloud to my friends, the entire thing is chocked full of doublespeak. the introduction itself is almost entirely doublespeak. and sometimes i read articles on fox's website, or the drudge report or whatever for fun. it's loaded with doublespeak. almost every article uses some device to change the meaning of language. it's brilliant.
one of my best friends brother is a linguist at UF. i'm pretty sure when those boys come back to texas for christmas we're going to have a serious discussion about this.

>> ^dystopianfuturetoday:
Have you tried explaining to her what fascism is?
Fourteen Defining
Characteristics Of Fascism
By Dr. Lawrence Britt
Source Free Inquiry.co
5-28-3

1. somehow they attributed this to "anti-americanism", like they hear from their right wing radios that democrats/liberals/lefties/socialists are always screaming about how terrible everything american is and burning flags, somehow in their brains un-nationalism=nationalism=fascism.

4. clinton and obama also increased military spending. we fought tons of proxy wars under the clinton administration and obama has just shifted the focus from iraq to afghanistan. and i can't argue that. they're right. even though they completely skimmed over 8 years of hyper-patriotism.

7. TSA porno-scanners. obama reauthorized the patriot act. also, can't argue with them, except theyre still ignoring the last 8 years.

8. so they're mormons, and historically, the government has interfered with the church. they see the whole prop 8 fiasco as modern day proof of that. and government is trying to legislate for the church, not the other way around.

9. no, corporate power is not protected. this socialist administration is infriging on them and the epa wants to bankrupt all the businesses.

10. unions are the enemy. nurses unions are the reason all of the hospitals in california are in trouble. labor unions are evil. theyre the mafia. blah blah blah. labor unions are fascist organizations funding the obama administration to take out the middle class. this list has a liberal bias.

11. obama killed all the student loans. there is no more access to student loans anywhere, eventhough i am currently living off of student loans. also, academia is where terrorist sympathizers hide out. which explains why her 2 most liberal children are working on graduate degrees in liberal things like physics and disability studies. and her conservative children didn't go to college. my brother and i are really the close minded fascists. if you point out my moms graduate degrees she says she got it during the clinton administration then she went and got a job with it outside of education. unlike my brother and i who don't actually have real jobs. even though my brother works for the military and the military pays for his education. nothing makes any sense.

12. they related this one to the ex con that works for my stepdad. he's finally off drugs and making an honest living and obama won't take his ankle bracelet off probably because he is a white non-violent offender. i'm not even sure what that has to do with the topic, but thats the anecdote they shared with me.

most of what they say doesnt make any sense to me. and vice versa. but i find if i break things down into really small individual issues then we agree like... climate change isnt man made... but it is bad for the planet to dump all of our trash in the ocean and bury toxic waste and cut the tops off all the mountains and burn things into the atmosphere. .... but there is not such thing as global warming.

or our border with mexico is a huge security risk and people in el paso are terrified of the drug wars raging in juarez and we need to deport all the undocumented workers and close our border for good until mexico sorts their shit out.
but women and children who flee from mexico are refugees and should be treated as such.

even when we talk about anarchism, they like anarchism. but if you were to say i was left wing and had radical leanings... they'd freak the fuck out.

so their values and morals are mostly intact, and theyre mostly just like mine... we just use different languages and theyre not worried about atrocities that happen in other places.

>> ^dystopianfuturetoday:

Wow, that's nuts. How did they spin 1, 4 and 7-12? >> ^peggedbea:
omg! i've actually gone through this exact list with her and her husband before and the most bizarre thing happened - they attached every single point to "liberals". the phenomenon here is that the language has been changed. the world "liberal" is no longer derived from the word "liberty". it simple means "ugly nazi fascist death monsters"
and the word "liberty" now means "liberty in christ".
i shoplifted a copy of "the overton window" over the summer and read it aloud to my friends, the entire thing is chocked full of doublespeak. the introduction itself is almost entirely doublespeak. and sometimes i read articles on fox's website, or the drudge report or whatever for fun. it's loaded with doublespeak. almost every article uses some device to change the meaning of language. it's brilliant.
one of my best friends brother is a linguist at UF. i'm pretty sure when those boys come back to texas for christmas we're going to have a serious discussion about this.

>> ^dystopianfuturetoday:
Have you tried explaining to her what fascism is?
Fourteen Defining
Characteristics Of Fascism
By Dr. Lawrence Britt
Source Free Inquiry.co
5-28-3

^So they are basically reacting to buzzwords. Say 'labor power is suppressed' and all they here is labor, which is 50% of the phrase 'labor union', and Glenn Beck told them that organized labor is a bad thing. If you ever have a child, be very careful not to use the phrase 'going into labor', lest they think you are trying to incite some kind of proletariat riot.

The crazy thing is that you aren't radical at all. Concern for the people who get fucked over in society is just good old fashioned compassion. Concern for the air we breathe, the water we drink and responsible management of resources is quite literally 'conservative'. Massive tax cuts for people who don't need them during a time recession, massive unemployment and an insurmountable debt seems far more 'radical' to me.

Remember Frank Luntz? The Dark Lord of Semantics? ... he'd likely appreciate that title.
Very smart man; focuses on the inherent emotion of words with little regard to their information content.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Luntz
(nice discussion about Orwell in that article, actually)


I was actually thinkings about similar things earlier this week; what do you think about this...

Q. Why can't liberals sell ideas as well as conservatives right now?

A. Smarter liberals oppose or are critical of using deceptive, emotionally manipulating words to sell their ideas, and don't as often fall in line with talking points that use this tactic. This is possibly due to a recognition that transparency is required when you want government influencing society. OR may simply be due to liberalism being tied to empathy.
Smarter conservatives are not as concerned about transparency or educating people on the issue; they have re-learned that directing the power of emotion is much more efficient and effective, and can be essentially mined from focus groups and applied broadly.


Q. What should liberals do to better sell their ideas?

A. Seek professional help; be concise, and go with humor and sincerity 9 times out of 10 (think John Stewart, but rapid online focus-grouping things for lameness). And once there is a message convince other liberal leaders of the value of that message with your survey/focus-group data and just REPEAT IT, don't expound on things and go all John Kerry, just FOCUS ON THE MESSAGE. Don't make bumper stickers; keep cool and stay classy.

For You, Bea. <3